Curse

Curseman · Jun 19, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

The underlying problem with balancing the paragon is, I think, that their party wide buffs are heavily based on what type of skills your teammates have and what they do.

What this ends up meaning is that a paragon whose build is tailored for his party is far, far better off than one who isn't. This is true for all classes, to an extent, but not on the same level as it is with the paragon.

Take for example, Chorus of Restoration, a healing skill that triggers when an ally uses a shout or chant. This isn't going to be helpful for more than one or two of your teammates in your standard team, but a gimmick group of paragons could use it as a cheap, constant, free source of powerful party wide healing.

Basically, if the paragon is balanced around PUGs, they will be overpowered in organized groups, and if they are balanced around organized groups, they'll be underpowered and useless in an unorganized PUG.

I think the correct way to build the paragon would have been to give them skills that benefit the entire team, regardless of their class or skill bar, like Stand Your Ground and Fall Back do.

Anyway, that's what I think a problem with the class is, how do you all feel about it?

slowerpoke · Jun 19, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

the biggest problem for the male paragon, they wear miniskirts

upier · Jun 19, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

the biggest problem for the male paragon, they wear miniskirts

Easier access baby, easier access!

On-topic:
Unlimited energy on an adrenaline based guy, with party damage/damage prevention/negation support, who is able to do damage from the mid-line while having front-line armour. Did I forget something?
The guy has it all so he can not REALLY be good.

Lishy · Jun 19, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

For me, it's the fact they almost ALWAYS have to show off their midriff and that they're usually forced to wear sandles or very bad looking boots.
We need more things like the norn armor.

Raudic · Jun 19, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

imabagon?

but yeah i guess thats only good when your playing with heros because most PUG's will just dismiss you as a nub

shinyglove · Jun 19, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

the biggest problem for the male paragon, they wear miniskirts

you forgot the way they dance/walk.
IMO the're are NO male paragons if ya get the point

Braxton619 · Jun 19, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

lol i would create a paragon but the miniskirts kill me

and their weird dance

ajc2123 · Jun 19, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curseman

The underlying problem with balancing the paragon is, I think, that their party wide buffs are heavily based on what type of skills your teammates have and what they do.

What this ends up meaning is that a paragon whose build is tailored for his party is far, far better off than one who isn't. This is true for all classes, to an extent, but not on the same level as it is with the paragon.

Take for example, Chorus of Restoration, a healing skill that triggers when an ally uses a shout or chant. This isn't going to be helpful for more than one or two of your teammates in your standard team, but a gimmick group of paragons could use it as a cheap, constant, free source of powerful party wide healing.

Basically, if the paragon is balanced around PUGs, they will be overpowered in organized groups, and if they are balanced around organized groups, they'll be underpowered and useless in an unorganized PUG.

I think the correct way to build the paragon would have been to give them skills that benefit the entire team, regardless of their class or skill bar, like Stand Your Ground and Fall Back do.

Anyway, that's what I think a problem with the class is, how do you all feel about it?

I think the correct way to balance a Paragon would be to delete it completely.

No but in all seriousness, I think your right. Balancing around pugs would make them OP in organized groups, balancing around organized groups will make them unwanted in Pugs....granted Pugs suck to begin with lol.

I think they made the right step in the PvE format so far...but just like the rt buff, it needs work. Granted they are more useful, but far from a wanted class (outside of SY)

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Easier access baby, easier access!

On-topic:
Unlimited energy on an adrenaline based guy, with party damage/damage prevention/negation support, who is able to do damage from the mid-line while having front-line armour. Did I forget something?
The guy has it all so he can not REALLY be good.

Why would you need energy on an adrenaline based person O_o

Yea their useful in the right groups, and I love mine (female of course >_>) to death. The only thing I dont like about them is how fricken specific they are in most of their skills! Partly why I dont like assassins, is how the lead offhand dual attack + other requirements (sometimes hexed, sometimes crippled etc etc) kind of force them into those 123456 builds.

Far from underpowered....just....slightly silly

Curseman · Jun 20, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Yeah, I agree on Paragons and Assassins. I've made characters of both classes, but I don't play either very much because of how situational all of their skills are.

Gennadios · Jun 20, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I've been playing my para for around 9 months now, and have not touched in imbagon build in about 6 months.

My main note about the update was that it made my primary command build way more powerful than it needs to be. Personal shouts I was using purely as echo fodder all of a sudden effect the entire party, making them double as energy management, and the skills I was using as energy management all of a sudden have buffed effects and no cooldown. It's nice to be doing extra stuff, but none of it seems necessary, I'm now drowning in energy, and the shouts my party finds itself under will have no use 90% of the time because they were really only intended for myself. I'm absolutely loving the "We shall return!" update though, and the hefty energy cost turned out to not be an issue for the reasons I already mentioned.

My primary motigon build on the other hand has had absolutely no benefit. The 3 skills I'm currently slotting are still the only skills worth using in the entire motivation line because the rest are too conditional to be worth the skill slot. I'm hoping they do a motivation upgrade eventually, and I would have preferred if it came first.

PS: The skirts you eventually learn to live with. The midriff bearing part is definitely an issue, but can be overcome /w Vabbian armor. The Anet apparently realized that people weren't too fond of the look since all of the EotN sets cover up, but they still look kind of cheap to me.

upier · Jun 20, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Why would you need energy on an adrenaline based person O_o

Like I said, that's the problem.
This just leads to an adrenaline guy being able to do energy skills. Whereas the whole reason why he has adrenaline is to make up for the fact that he shouldn't be able to do energy skills.

ajc2123 · Jun 21, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said, that's the problem.
This just leads to an adrenaline guy being able to do energy skills. Whereas the whole reason why he has adrenaline is to make up for the fact that he shouldn't be able to do energy skills.

Ah.

Normally I run majority of energy skills with a few adrenalin.

I find the biggest problem I have, Is I'm used to Warriors. Many times I look at all the paragon chants and I go "I wanna use this! I need to use this one!" etc etc. but then I totally forget to put attack skills in there. Being used to the warrior, I feel naked without around 4 attack skills, at MOST I bring 2 with the paragon.

Sometimes I don't bring any at all and I'm just a buff machine. I get annoyed at the 2-0 damage spear damage I'm doing however. Then when I bring 3+ attack skills, I'm annoyed at the lack of paragon buffs that I wanted to use, but couldn't fit.

Sometimes I wish the paragons skill bar had 3 extra slots lol.

Reverend Dr · Jun 21, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curseman

Basically, if the paragon is balanced around PUGs, they will be overpowered in organized groups, and if they are balanced around organized groups, they'll be underpowered and useless in an unorganized PUG.

This is very true. Imbagon aside, before the update paragons already worked very well in organized groups who build around each other (predominantly physical heavy groups), but less than lackluster in PuG groups. Previously it was already possible to replace a backline with 3-4 paragons while bolstering warrior performance (throw in orders on a caster well out of range and it can be truly devastating). While effective and easy it was just never easy enough to organize to catch on in pug play.

The update bolsters the paragon's ability to support a physical heavy team even more and I wouldn't be surprised to see non-imbagons in physical groups. Likewise I'd also not be surprised if PuG's still only take imbagons.

The other issue is that most paragon skills have no soft counters. Shouts cannot be interrupted, can be used on the ground. All of the chants/shouts/echos cannot be removed at all. We've seen the same issue with rit weapon spells, though in this case there is no indication of any shouts present and a player is not limited to having only one shout. It is a system that has to be watched very closely.

Ultimately the paragon suffers from bad design; it is a class that hails from a region that resembles Africa, it specializes in shouting and throwing spears. Even the conception of the paragon was poorly designed.

Show Some Skin · Jun 21, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I kinda wanted to make a Paragon as my main and my max title char but the only thing i really know they are good at is Imbagon. They got those skirts too which arent so great, but Vabbian armor makes it look pretty great. Plus throwing a spear doesnt sound as fun as if you play war you destroy everything in your path lol. Maybe its just me or i dont take as much effort to try to get into them, but they just dont seems as great as they should be

vamp08 · Jun 22, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

the biggest problem for the male paragon, they wear miniskirts

I'm pretty sure you'd be skimping down into an armpred skirt if you ran around in the Elonian desert and in places with the name "The Desolation".

dusanyu · Jun 22, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

If your guild / alliance grouping take your paragon your Team mates will Love you

as far as the mini skirt name your Pera "Runs Without Pants" and your set. People will see the armor and the name, laugh and give you creativity points

oh and for the male Paragons it's not a skirt it's a Kilt!

Tzalaran · Jun 26, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

If your guild / alliance grouping take your paragon your Team mates will Love you

Para has been my main for 2.5 years, and initially my guild didn't think i was much help to the group because what paragons do isn't obvious like warriors, necros, and eles.

then they tried going through HM dungeons and missions without me...

they got wiped in some of the first mobs, and i get invited along quite often now.

Ney Matogrosso · Jun 29, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tzalaran

Para has been my main for 2.5 years, and initially my guild didn't think i was much help to the group because what paragons do isn't obvious like warriors, necros, and eles.

then they tried going through HM dungeons and missions without me...

they got wiped in some of the first mobs, and i get invited along quite often now.

My paragon is may main char for less than 6 months but is very helpfull in many dungeons, missions, my guild always invite me because whit a few monks (really we use Livia as a healer) we can complet the majory of the dungeons, if I play like Imbagon, but have anothers builds using Ursan, bip, healer and others, not so good like a monk/necro, but when we don't have then, paragon fit and an extra protection ever is wellcome.

Improvavel · Jul 03, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

To all those complaining about the paragon "skirts" just see any decent Rome based movie or the great series "Rome".

And Paras are quite decent spear chuckers and can stun. With find their weakness, Stunning strike was never so sweet. Stand your ground while not as good as save urselves is good enough. Now they only to revert watch yourselves.

And a second paragon, if you have an imbagon can use the stunning strike, bring gdw and ebsoh for example with that second copy of tntf.

Tenebrae · Jul 03, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Right now the only prob with para is the moti att. They need a lower cast ( or even none sometimes ) and their effect to be triggered more times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Ah.
Normally I run majority of energy skills with a few adrenalin.

I find the biggest problem I have, Is I'm used to Warriors. Many times I look at all the paragon chants and I go "I wanna use this! I need to use this one!" etc etc. but then I totally forget to put attack skills in there. Being used to the warrior, I feel naked without around 4 attack skills, at MOST I bring 2 with the paragon.

Sometimes I wish the paragons skill bar had 3 extra slots lol.

Well thats kinda like your problem. The hybrid support role is just hard to understand and to use , its not your fault but it happens. You cant do all alone , may sound lame but "sunspears never fight alone" . Paragons power increase DRAMATICALLY when they are 2+.
Try to do all alone is just like ask a Monk to heal , prot , buff and entire party ALONE, knockdown targets ( with smitting prayers ) , and interrupt casters for e management and preventing damage from hostile spells.
Try to coordinate skills and in combat tactics with a physical party with 2 or 3 paragons or even more ; only 6 P , 1 healer and 1 MM buffer .... its insane and it works with minimal effort.